Does Mark Driscoll Continue to Lie to Mars Hill Members?

The below was submitted to PH via email. Since each fact checks out and the points are extremely relevant and important, PH is posting the article.

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Mark Driscoll keeps changing the story.

Just as a suspected adulterer lies to cover his sin to appear innocent, Mark Driscoll and the elders are changing the story as they defend their actions.

This is illuminating. It shows that after 5 months there is still pressure to explain their actions. It also shows that Mark Driscoll and the elders are ashamed of the original story they put out and have to come up with better reasons why they fired Pastor Paul and Pastor Bent.

And… story is changing…again. Mark Driscoll now states publicly that the two pastors were fired for poor job performance. Why did we not hear this when they were fired 5 months ago? Because Mark Driscoll did not think of saying it 5 months ago – it was not even on his mind at that point. Furthermore, it never would have passed the laugh test then. They had both received good job performance reviews just a couple of months before their firings. We members have watched these men work harder than any two Elders we know.

So why this new lie from Mark Driscoll?

The new lie is being presented because the truth shows the actions taken to be sinful and wrong. He cannot stick to that story because it is shameful, and he therefore is still looking for the story that the hearers will believe, so that folks will just let this go. Now, he teaches young Acts 29 pastors that “just as he had to recently do, sometimes you have to remove elders even though there is no charge against them – they are simply not doing their job.”

Below is the evolution of what we have been told. Read it, and grieve for the sin of our leaders.

  1. September 2007:The men were “fired for sin” Not moral sin but sin that serious enough to fire them. We members were not told what the sin was so as to protect the two elders and to avoid fueling gossip. (Munson letter on members site)
  2. October 2007: It was all about the bylaws. In the resulting confusion and consternation from the membership, a long time member known for her respectful manner asked to see a copy of the bylaws under which she was governed and these men were fired, she was denied the opportunity. Instead, Mark Driscoll told her in an extremely patronizing tone on the members’ site that she had unintentionally stumbled on the root problem of the matter, the by-laws. (Driscoll post on members site)
  3. October 2007: Violating Elder Protocol. Members were told that these men violated elder protocol by discussing the proposed by-laws with the church lawyer without the required permission. Additionally, these men did not have and that have a proper respect (an “unhealthy distrust”) for their leaders. Elder protocol was also violated when one of these men allowed one member to see the confidential proposed new bylaws so as to ask for his insight on the proposed changes. (Conversations with various elders, the 145 page document)
  4. November 2, 2007: “Posturing and Grabbing at Power and Money.” The Elders presented the infamous 145 page document in which they endeavored to explain their actions. A thorough reading of this document does not imply or even hint that the men had inadequate job performance. Instead, the newest allegation was that the men were posturing for and attempting to grab power and money. This latest allegation had never been mentioned prior to this. A review of the facts shows that that there is absolutely no evidence that this accusation from Mark Driscoll is anything but a lie.* It was just another desperate attempt to pacify the members and put out the fire that they had started.

    *A review of the facts shows clearly that if anyone can be accused of grabbing power and money it is Mark Driscoll and the other 4 executive elders. The very men that fired the two pastors and then proceeded to level charges against them are the same men that gained extraordinary power and additional money under the new by-laws. Under the existing bylaws, the executive 5 had only one vote of twenty four. The Executive 5 would have 1 vote of 5 under the new by-laws. The new by-laws stripped all the other elders of any real power. Pastor Paul and Pastor Bent would gain no power or money were the existing bylaws kept in place.

  5. November/December 2007: “Paul Petry refuses to be reconciled.” This lie has been fairly effective, therefore the elders have kept saying it. James Harleman has said that Pastor Paul has refused to be reconciled despite the elders seeking reconciliation innumerable times. Tim Quiring states that Pastor Paul is divisive, angry, vindictive and “not responded to the grace being offered to him by the Mars Hill leadership.” (the 145 page document, the Shunning letter.) In fact neither of these men have made any contact with Pastor Paul at all in the 5 months since the firings. This is true of almost all the elders. Contrary to Mr. Harleman’s allegation, the number of attempts on the part of Mars Hill have been been pathetically few and usually adversarial in nature. When Pastor Paul did agree to meet with Elder “x”, this elder changed the terms of the meeting and refused to meet with Pastor Paul under the originally agreed upon terms. The Elders have refused to meet with Pastor Paul. While Elder x was trying to arrange this meeting with Pastor Paul, the Elders simultaneously were issuing a public announcement calling for Pastor Paul to be shunned by the members of Mars Hill. This is the grace referred to by Tim Quiring?

    The “refusal to be reconciled” line has run its course and is becoming weak and non-credible.

  6. February 2007: “Inadequate Job Performance” (Mark Driscoll – Acts 29 conference)

And the story gets spun and respun.

These various evolutions of history were occurring as the Elders were being challenged that the charges were silly, the trial not fair and just by any reasonable person’s standards, and that the process was simply a mistake by naïve elders at best or blatantly sinful and cruel at worst. Each new lie has confirmed that the trial had merely demonstrated the sin resident in the heart.

Of course these stories will eventually cease to work because no member would expect a party so badly treated to willingly subject himself to further abuse. Many of us members have inquired of both fired pastors and heard that the Elders are stubborn and refusing to meet or yield. The story told by these men give a totally different perspective of the events. Both men have called for elders to cease their lies and repent of their actions.

The original charges and the ensuing actions taken by the elders cannot stand the test of biblical scrutiny.

We now hear that Mark Driscoll, who clearly and publically voiced to the church his anger towards the two elders in his Sept 30th sermon before he even fired telling us that in fact the men were actually fired for poor job performance.

Well. This latest lie will not stick either.

What will the next lie be?

PH: Are these the actions of men qualified to be Elders?

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51 Responses to Does Mark Driscoll Continue to Lie to Mars Hill Members?

  1. Greg Wright says:

    Can you source this post please? When did Mark say they were fired for poor job performance?

  2. prayingheart says:

    PH was not at conference, will see if we can narrow the time period. PH knows for a fact was said by Driscoll in a meeting with a Acts 29 pastor and one other person. If you were at the conference and do not recall, PH wonders if was stated in an informal discussion not on stage.

    Would be very curious what Pastor Driscoll would say presently if you asked him why they were fired? Based upon the history, anything is possible.

  3. prayingheart says:

    Have confirmed, was said in the Acts 29 boot camp prior to the conference.

  4. dfndr.faith says:

    I also spoke recently with one of the two fired pastors. He shared the same story that Ph did….about a recent private meeting between Mark Driscoll and a church pastor of a large congregation in the Puget Sound area. The minister was accompanied by one of the fired MH pastors. In the meeting the minister shared with Mark how wrong the shunning document was and that this was giving the church (all churches) a black eye, especially here in Seattle. Mark was also asked if he was referring to Paul and Bent in the famous Nehemiah sermon last fall and he said he no….that he was only referring to some church members. He was also asked why he fired Paul and Bent and he answered by saying that he didn’t fire them….that Jaime fired them because “they were doing a poor job. What primarily stood out to me from what I heard was that Mark’s tone either vague, evasive, or that he couldn’t remember details when he was asked specific questions.

  5. saintlewis says:

    Don’t you folks have anything better to do but witch-hunting?

  6. Sober says:

    Shannon:

    Perhaps if it was you who had been mercilessly fired and then castigated for reacting normally to the injustice, you would not consider those that were trying to seek justice for you as witch-hunters.

    Mic 6:8

  7. prayingheart says:

    Shannon,
    Thank you for your carefully considered comment. “Witch-hunt” implies searching for something that does not exist. Unfortunately, the documents and verified facts show that injustice was done, and that oppressive, malicious behavior continues. PH has “nothing better” to do than to seek justice and rebuke the oppressors.

    Isaiah 1:17

  8. Stan says:

    Shannon / saintlewis…

    I think most here would prefer to spend whatever time we do here on any number of other things but… this is not a full-time job for anyone here and I imagine most that read and post here actually do many other things. Whether they are “better” than the efforts here we humbly submit to God’s judgment.

    I can’t speak for all, but for me God has laid on my heart that an injustice was done of significant proportions. He has further required of me to “do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with” my God (Micah 6:8). So, I pursue truth and seek to make the record straight with “…firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right” (Lincoln 2nd Inaugural).

    As for you, Shannon/saintlewis, I appreciate your concern for our time management. I am a humble person and would not presume to pronounce judgment on another without doing considerable homework as to the issues involved. May I ask how much time you spent reading and thinking and praying about the issues raised here? And, given your maturity in time prioritization – how did you come to be so interested?

    Finally, would you spend just a little more time and explain this “witch-hunting” label? These are serious matters of church governance and ecclesiastical judicial process involving real people, their jobs and reputations. It’s about elder conduct, responsibilities and integrity.

    I always appreciate the thoughtful, loving opinion of a fellow christian who has invested time, prayer and concern on weighty matters.

    Stan

  9. Outsider says:

    As an infrequent attender but weekly listener, I have a hard time understanding the “injustice” of it all. I’ve read a lot of the opinions from sites such as this and unfortunately you all just sound angry that you weren’t involved in the decision making at the elder level. Having been in church leadership, and as a small business owner, there are lots of decisions that take place behind closed doors that are not needed to be justified to the entire congregation. They have been put in a position of leadership and if you are unhappy with their choices then go elsewhere. This is not your church, and in a church this size you will never be involved in the behind the scenes decision making that takes place. If you don’t trust that God has put these men in a position to lead MHC then you are in the wrong place. Your skepticism needs to take you somewhere else, not running to The Stranger with the latest dirt or starting up a website devoted to bringing down a man that God has chosed to do amazing things through. Your motives seem very questionable to me…

  10. jennifer says:

    I dond’t get the impression that people are just upset that decisions have been made that they haven’t been part of. It comes across to me (as another outsider) that people are feeling they have seen injustice occur and couldn’t get straight answers to straight questions.

    Though you may be right in saying that the only response now is for people who can’t trust the leadership there to go somewhere they can.

  11. Sober says:

    Outsider:

    Had you been angrily fired, then subjected to a “trial” for sins that hardly rise to the level of a rebuke, then when you claimed your innocence the elders called for the church to shun you and your family perhaps you would see the injustice of it all. Add to that the fact that you gave up your law practice and served faithfully the church whose executive elders just fired and shamed you.

    No one wants to bring MH down. PH wants to see repentance and God honored.

    I do not believe that you are being honest when you say you cannot see the injustice that was done.

  12. prayingheart says:

    Outsider, as a frequent attender who has chosen to be involved within Mars Hill, and as one who has chosen to research the matters discussed here, PH DOES understand the injustice of it all. Feel free to do any or all of the above and come back with any specific questions you may have regarding the facts or conclusions presented here.

  13. mytwosense says:

    Just noticed your site and know very little about the intricate details.

    You appear you be maintaining a humble approach.

    What can happen in these gatherings is the offending of VERY smart and explosive people that can lead to the creating of sites without any kind of decency or reservation. They stop at nothing to destroy. And when and how it comes can be a complete surprise. And yes, they can be believers.

    Like a fire in a theatre, everyone heads for the exits OVERNIGHT.

    MD and brethren must stay humble and considerate.
    Mis-managing people, using a “hammer-over-the-head” approach, can easily sew seeds for future vengeance by the offended.

    Remember though..

    After the shell-shocks of what can happen in a gathering, Jesus Christ is faithful.
    He will continue to lead you forward.

    His grace abounds.

  14. SS says:

    Ok! So what we have here is essentially a bunch of bitter angry folks who simply don’t agree with a decision Mark and his elders made about letting a couple of Pastors go. Right or wrong, it’s not their ministry that they’re responsible for. we wouldn’t have much of a New testament had Paul not taken responsibility for the ministries he started. That is what Mark has done. He is the Pastor over all Mars Hill Campuses like it or not. It’s his call. He’s the one responsible for his actions before God. Bitching and whining over things you think you know all the answers to ( and I’m sure you don’t) doesn’t cause anything but division. It’s why I had to seperate myself from my former church. It’s not my church. I’m not the Pastor whom God has placed over it. I didn’t agree with a lot of things. I was able to grin and bear much of it for a longtime. But when it affected my personal walk, it was time to leave because I was becoming bitter and angry. Bottomline. God places the vision for ministry in the hearts of certain men and places men over those ministries. They have sole responsibility for that ministry. They choose who will be leaders within that ministry (hopefully by a biblical standard)and no one else. If it were any other way (which is the case in most protestant churches where we get to vote what yahoo gets to be a Deacon or Elder because we like them this year. That’s called politics and has no place in the Church. You end up with Easter not meant for kidshttp://www.theresurgence.com/russell_moore_2008-03-16_silly_rabbit_easters_not_for_kids. And one hell of an ineffectual and dead church

    If you’re a member of Mars Hill Church (which I am not) and you simply can’t bite your tongue about minor issues of leadership, find a new church home. Of course I’m sure in due time you’ll find something to your dislike there as well. Unless of course you find yourself at many of today’s mainstream churches who will simply “tickle your ears”.

    So here’s the real question. Is the Gospel message being compromised? I think not. Just your own self imposed intellectual superiority.

    1:03 AM

  15. Peedie says:

    Actually Mark Driscoll is not technically the head of all the churches. Jamie Munson is. And one of the executive elders actually went straight from non-elder to executive elder status. That is highly suspicious to me.

  16. SS says:

    Peedie,

    Thanks for the response. I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know a lot about MH and it’s governmental structure. My point is that irregardless, God, specifically Jesus Christ who is the head of the Church Universal, has appointed the leadership over Mars Hill. The Church is not a democracy. The men who are in leadership are accountable to Him and Him alone. He is the King, the High Priest, Lord of lords and it’s His Church. If He desires the leadership to change He’ll change it. If a “member” of that local body is dissatisfied with the leadership they have two available options. Address either in person or letter or email personally the leadership and/or find a different fellowship.

    Fact is, we’re all sons of Adam. None of us is perfect. The leadership of The Church will be held to a higher standard by Christ. But blogs and other forums of debate like this do nothing for the Glory of Christ. And that is our purpose as adopted sons of God. Rejoice in the fact that many have come to a saving knowledge of the Grace of God through His Son Jesus through MH’s ministries. Be challenged in your own personal walk to not be like those who do wrong whether in leadership or otherwise. Fact is this, when someone wrongs you, sins against you, it stops being their sin for you and becomes God’s will for your life. He allowed it. So the question becomes, what will you do with it? Will you justify an attitude of bitterness, sin and divisiveness in yourself? Or turn to the Lord and place your trust in Him? I’ve been down that path. It only leads to bitterness and suffering for all involved especially the one making judgement.

    The Church is far from perfect. We’re in it. But then that is the miracle isn’t it. That He’s chosen to indwell us, broken, dirty, cracked and vile vessels. We don’t worship the vessel, we worship the Treasure inside. Be glad He’s poured out His Grace on us all. The only thing that is rightly ours apart from Christ is Death and Hell. We want to think that we have rights, but we don’t. Not a one. Dead people don’t have rights. And if you are His, you were crucified with Christ. Done, finished, dead. So reckon it to be so.

    No more backbiting, slander and hate. If they’re in the wrong, who are we to judge? How many ways are we screwed up ourselves? Our place is to bring it before the Lord and let Him deal with it. We need to be examining ourselves and letting the Lord examine us as well. That’s our responsibility. So that as we become more like Christ it is He who shines forth and we become a witness of Christ to others. How does any of this accomplish that?

    The Church as a whole is in a very sad state. We’ve taken our eyes off the Lord and what He’s done for us and allowed the enemy to steal the joy of our salvation. He’s very cunning and good at it. Let’s not help him. Rather let’s stand strong in the promise of the Lord, that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church.

    With the Love of Christ and a deep concern for His Glory in our lives and our witness before the World.

    Scott

  17. mytwosense says:

    The NT has heirarchial management layers of elders?

    Didn’t think so.

    Disregard it and it’ll be back to bite.

    No paster is Head of any church.
    Christ purchased it.

  18. mytwosense says:

    Becoming a member of the body of Christ begins at new birth.
    Becoming a member of a gym club, a chess club, or a member of anything else, is use of the term outside of Biblical definitition.

  19. prayingheart says:

    SS: You ask “Is the Gospel message being compromised? ” The answer is a resounding YES, if the actions and behaviors of the messengers can impact the message.

  20. Greg says:

    SS wrote:
    “If they’re in the wrong, who are we to judge?”

    Scott, is your Bible missing 1 Corinthians 5? Believers are accountable to one another, and this includes Mark Driscoll.

  21. J. R. Miller says:

    I hope you all find reconciliation and I pray all involved find peace in the midst of crisis.

  22. prayingheart says:

    JR….us too…us too. May Jesus be glorified through it all.

  23. David says:

    prayingheart said: “Jr… us too…us too. May jesus be glorified through it all.”

    honestly, in no way do i see how Jesus is being glorified thru this website. for his name’s sake, please stop this.

  24. jennifer says:

    PH – I was disturbed in reading the letter you have posted as the preface to the document to the church in the way that the letter of Philippians was cited and “applied” to the situation. I have myself been a long-time member of a church which used Scipture to control members – and this is the same sort of thing I came across there. I have also listened to a couple of the Philippian sermons from the series where he says very similar things to what is written in the letter.

    I am surprised since he has many friends among sound pastors if no-one is picking up on this use of scripture which is manifestly massaged to fit the situation. I do hope that some in the church have challenged on this at some stage.

  25. Bob Dole says:

    Bob Dole would like to know why PH won’t just confront the elders at Mars Hill and why take such an irrational and anonymous measure to deal with this situation.

    “JR….us too…us too. May Jesus be glorified through it all.”

    Seriously? When a non believer wants to find out about Jesus on the internet and stumbles across Mark Driscoll, and his preaching, which most of us find culturally relevant and biblical. And they start to gain interest in Jesus and start doing youtube and google searches for Driscoll and Mars Hill church. The last thing that they need to see is this site. Or any of the youtube videos that were anonymously posted by reallysad1(which could in all possibility be you, PH). These are family issues that non believers and new converts shouldn’t have to wade through to find Jesus. Bob Dole doesn’t in any way see Jesus being glorified through what you are doing here.

    Bob Dole isn’t my real name, my name is Joshua. And I think though there may be no verses to support or oppose your anonymousity, psuedopigraphacal material can get really sticky really fast. Plus it feels very cowardice and it’s really hard for Bob Dole to take you seriously when you’re hiding behind a pen name.

    If this really is an issue that needs to be taken care of then take care of it, grow some and confront the elders at the church, but this is no place for attacking an elder.

    Jesus, you are sovereign and you rule over all peoples in all nations. And I pray that you would give us the wisdom and the strength to handle this situation in a righteous and biblical manner. And Holy Spirit if Mark is in the wrong, I ask that you would soften his heart to the matter and give him the humility to admit his mistakes and repent so that reconciliation may ensue. And if this be just bitter hearts and vengeful spirits, may they be settled and seek repentance. Jesus you have done amazing things in Seattle through Mark and I pray that this not get in the way of the spread of the Gospel throughout the region, nation, and the world through this anointed ministry. Jesus you are righteous, just, and sovereign and you have supreme control. Give us wisdom in this matter. Amen.

  26. Jonastree says:

    Why is the material on this blog so focused on the supposed error of Driscoll and the MH elders rather than on the actual position and testimony of the guys who were fired? It seems as if there’s any legitimate wrongdoing, it should be evident from the testimony of those two men. Taking the angle of criticizing the leadership shouldn’t be necessary at all. If folks hear from the other side, they can think it through for themselves. You do your own heart and relationship with Jesus no favors when you focus on the perceived flaws of the people you feel have wronged you. I’ve been through an extremely difficult situation where I became estranged from the folks who pastor the church I attended myself, and I can tell you from experience that even though I feel like ultimately I was wronged, the only reason I came away with my heart intact was that by God’s faithful grace, I was able to step aside and let the Spirit bear witness to the situation and speak on my behalf. Also by his grace, I was able to see some of the character flaws in myself that helped contribute to the situation, which I am still working on with his help. I strongly believe that if we feed and water a bitter root by writing, talking and meditating on it, it will choke out what’s left of the ministry of the Spirit in our own lives. Look at your life, brother or sister or whoever you are, and see if that has truly become the case or not. Let God be God, and let it go. Like it or not, there has been an enormous amount of good fruit bourne by MH and the preaching of MDricoll, and my prayer is that that continues in both his life and yours. Just so you know, I am not a member of MH or affiliated with them or anything, I actually live in the Norhteast. God bless you, Prayingheart, I’m offering a prayer for you as I send this…

  27. Jackson says:

    I’ve been reading over this website. I am currently investigating religion and my options. I heard Driscoll on Youtube and liked him. Downloaded some mp3’s of this sermons. Guy preaches an hour or so. Amazing- holds my attention. After reading this, I think I’ll just move on. His faith is just like every other Christian’s faith- nothing but a sham so he can make money and exert power. Onward to Taoism in my search for something real! Thanks for exposing Driscoll. Wish me luck!

  28. Bob Dole says:

    Thanks a lot Jackson, my point exactly. PH, you need to take this crap off the internet. You’re doing more harm than you’re stopping and if Jackson was for real, (And I don’t doubt that there may have been people who did just that) you will be held accountable for it. Take this website down, you’re not helping anyone. Cheers.

  29. mytwosense says:

    jackson,

    You’re lost in sin.

    You need to be born again.

    “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (Joh 3:3)

    Taoism, reader’s digest, coupon books are o.k, in a coffee shop glance.

    But only through Jesus Christ can you know forgiveness and everlasting life.

    Time to get right with God.

  30. musicman says:

    Claiming all the “good” Mark is doing as an excuse for other “questionable” actions is a slippery slope that you do not want to follow.

  31. Deacon D says:

    PH, repent. Remove this website. If Mark has wronged you, I beg of you to go to him and speak to him about the problem. Sit on his doorstep if he will not listen. Airing your grievances here does nothing but wound the body of Christ. I will not judge your situation right or wrong, but having this website up is a root of bitterness, a wedge of divisiveness and a denial of Matthew 18.

    If he will not listen to you, or does not concede in the way you wish, there are other churches out there that you can go to. But if you will not let go of your bitterness and divisive spirit, may God have mercy on wherever you go. This post is not about if Driscoll is wrong, but letting you know that your actions in posting this blog ARE wrong. Repent and turn away from your sinful actions. Christ loves you and stands ready to forgive you. If there is injustice, he will repay.

  32. kk says:

    I’m disgusted by this website. My husband and I have come to experience Jesus’ love and forgiveness at Mars Hill through the teaching of Pastor Mark and are ashamed that you publicly slander him.

    If you believe you have been sinned against, go to him directly. You are displaying social and spiritual immaturity and this blog is, unfortunately, a reflection of your diseased heart.

  33. Jude says:

    Please repent of your bitterness and remove this web site. It is not gloryifying to God in any way. The bible clearly outlines God’s plan for handling disputes within the body and this is not one of them.

  34. jennifer says:

    By all accounts PH has sought to address this in the ways you are mentioning. However, the Bible doesn’t say, if you show someone their sin, and they don’t listen, sit on their doorstep for evermore. They are then to take others, and eventually tell it to the church.

    Mark is now a “public” church figure. He speaks to the wider church through his online sermons, blogs, books etc. The body of Christ in this case becomes wider than your local church.

  35. Danny says:

    It is a common component of abusive families that a “code of silence” is enforced. Don’t talk about it. Keep it inside the walls of the home. The one who breaks the silence may be viewed by family members as a traitor and blamed for damaging the family, rather than the actual perpetrators of the abuse. But in order for abusive behavior to stop and healing to begin, the truth must be brought into the light.

    These dynamics occur in authoritarian organizations (such as some churches) as well.

    Do not be silent, so long as what you are speaking is true.

  36. noseintheair says:

    >>My point is that irregardless, God, specifically Jesus Christ who is the head of the Church Universal, has appointed the leadership over Mars Hill.<<

    This kind of smarmy statement is why I am no longer an Evangelical.

  37. Kurt says:

    I have been at a church where I didn’t agree with the choices made by the senior leadership. At that point I had a choice to make, stay and be miserable while continue to complain and drag up stuff that they had already hashed out and moved on from, or leave.
    If you agree or not with senior leadership, that matters little. You are called to follow, if you feel you or someone you know has been wronged to the point you can no longer follow that leadership, then do the right thing and move on. I have read all the posts and so on. This all seems to be issues between management and not worthy of airing amongst all the congregation and more important, the general public. The last church I was at would have been 10 times stronger had the senior pastor had the guts to simply fire some people and have their few followers exit the building with them so someone that would work better in that role could be moved in. Instead, to avoid troubles they left weak people in charge of major ministries that are now failing. I am not saying these 2 men were fired justifiably, I personally don’t care. All I am saying is this kind of thing happens, if you disagree to the point you can no longer follow, move on for the sake of Christ. Airing the issue for the people outside the church only hurts them, not those inside.

  38. J. R. Miller says:

    SS originally wote

    “My point is that irregardless, God, specifically Jesus Christ who is the head of the Church Universal, has appointed the leadership over Mars Hill.”

    As an aside, I would like to point out that “irregardless” is not a word.

    try “regardless” or “irrespective” 🙂

  39. […] Does Mark Driscoll Continue to Lie to Mars Hill Members? […]

  40. ZionsDAD says:

    I have been throught this situation many times… and may i remind EVERYONE that Mark is the Spritual authority in your church… if u feel injustice has been done and are not getting the answers you want… u just have to make to choices… DEAL OR NO DEAL?

    you either believe that ultimatly Pastor Mark is held accoutable for the church and the members… or you dont hold him as your spritual authority and should just leave the church and go some where you can find that person….

    in the grand scheme of it all this “trial” does not lift up the church as a whole, i does not bring people to the knowledge of christ, and it furthermore it truely harms the future of this body… even if Pastor Mark was to be wrong, now to many people have a wrong preception of a leader who lies… trust just isnt going to be restored even if you get what you want… ITS BEATING A DEAD HORSE… EITHER GET IN OR GET OUT…

  41. Bart Wang says:

    PH, keep it up. Driscoll is not the head of the church. Christ has given all believers the position of high priests but with different gifts. We all need to submit to each other and not institute hierarchies which do not exist in God’s kingdom. We have one King. Driscoll’s not it nor any of the MH elders. It’s not me, either. We need each other, people.

  42. the art of war…

    …He wrote that . . ….

  43. Chris Kinner says:

    If the Pastors who were dismissed are good Godly men the best thing for them to do would be to move out and minister elsewhere. Why stay and fight or write about it on your website?

    Driscoll and his elders will be dealt with by God (who oversees the church) if they are wrong in this. Turning them over to God to deal with them in His time and His way is powerful and will work just fine,

    Instead of people probing to find out the truth of what happened here, why don’t we move forward to get the Kingdom work done?

    “But the truth needs to be told!” you may say. One day it will all be known, told and judged, by Jesus. Until then we should bear fruit. I don’t see any fruit coming from this website, just bitterness and divisive talk.

    Witch hunts never end well. The truth needs help from no one. Definitely not you. Good luck!

  44. […] deceit and misconduct regarding the dismissal of the 2 pastors […]

  45. […] of the elders fired by Mark Driscoll in 2007 has spoken out. You can read the comments by Bent Meyer here. The entire […]

  46. Thank you for continuing to raise awareness about leadership abuse in the local church. It is important for people to know what it is and how devastating it is for people. Though things look great in the beginning, something happens and then the harmful leadership behavior comes out.

    You might be interested in my doctoral research on spiritual abuse. It is now in a book entitled: Spiritual Abuse Recovery.

    My website is: http://www.ChurchExiters.com.

    All the best as you continue to raise the awareness.

  47. Joe Desierto says:

    The fruit of Mark Driscoll quite frankly stinks, & Jesus did say that you would recognize those who are false by their fruit (even if they have impeccable theology) so I do agree… If you are a member of MH… RUN… Don’t walk away from this power cult.

  48. Thomas Schnable says:

    there is a reason that two thousand years of church history has proceeded us. churches, particularly confessional ones, have over that time developed ecclesiastical doctrines that discuss church authority in such a way as to not usurp our Savior’s authority over his church and the lives of individuals. Mark Driscoll’s emphasis on a God who’s arm is not too short to save is a healthy antidote to what tends to be the presentation of a weak willed God. However, like all nouveau churches that have sprung up recently a lack of a well thought out discussion of what a church actually looks like in its relational aspects generally leads to the byzantium like intrigue that is unfolding before us again. the novelty of this is that it has struck the calvinist camp this time. There are two things i would suggest. 1. Let’s look to the wisdom of our fathers that have proceeded us. they have blazed this trail and have much to tell us. 2. Perhaps we should get our ecclesiology right before we go off to “help people with the gospel” and end up causing more damage than good in the long run. What’s the sense of curing someone only to send him home to a disease ridden hovel.

  49. Modboy72 says:

    MH is a cult. I got out of there when I noticed that a lot of good, godly Pastors started exiting the church, wether is was due to Driscoll firing them or them seeing the handwriting on the wall and got out while they could. I was the victim of spiritual abuse on many levels and after being told that I could not re-join my mens group, with very little to no explanation, I decided to get out. That place is being run by abusive, cult-like members. Get out while you can.

  50. […] dust up, Driscoll stated that Security has confiscated his books. This was an absolute lie. He has lied before. It is not just his shameful behavior as a “pastor” where he loves to mock […]

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